Crimewave Can't Bust Our Music!
An Interview with the Zip Code Rapists

MM: Tell everybody who you are.

GT: Thank you for the opportunity. My name is Gregg Turkington and I am the founder of Amarillo Records.

MM: I thought Al Marillo was the founder of Amarillo Records...

GT: Not exactly. Mr. Marillo was very helpful at setting up office shelving at the beginning but he eventually had to return to his native Guatemala.

MM: O.K., let's say that I believe that it was you, and not Mr. Marillo, behind the record label, what made you start Amarillo Records?

GT: It was a way to meet girls.

MM: Tell us about the girls.

GT: Well, you meet all types. That's too broad of a question.

MM: O.K., tell us about one girl in particular then. Is there one that stands out?

GT: That one with the flower in her hair. What the Hell was her deal? She told me 10 tales and then wandered 'til spring. Sick.

MM: Alright, if you're not going to give us a serious answer about the girls, we'll take another route. Tell us about your band, The Zip Code Rapists. I hear you're back together.

GT: You heard wrong. Everyone's off "doing their own thing".

MM: But you did get back together for a while, after the ugly break-up and that period when you and John and your lawyers were publicly at war with one another.

GT: Oh yeah, we tried that out for awhile. We released a disastrous EP ("94124") and toured behind it, the whole nostalgia thing--but the magic and the money weren't there, so we had to give up the ghost. We did get back together long enough to record an O.J. Simpson-inspired 7" ("He Is Innocent"/"Guilty as Charged"), but it was never released. Our last show was in Osaka Japan in Nov. 1995.

MM: If you're looking for a label to put it out, your search is over. I've gone into debt over things far sillier (see ad for the Monkey Power Trio’s new 7", “The Sound of No Hands Clapping”). Send me a tape.

GT: The problem wasn't so much a lack of a label, but lethargy. I will send you a tape. But you're better off going on vacation with the money. Hawaii is very nice and not that expensive this time of year, and there are too many records in the world already.

MM: It sounds as though this might be something that America needs to hear though, something that could perhaps help us to heal.

GT: Well, I'll let you be the judge. At the very least it might appeal to O.J. Trial collectors.

MM: Alright, back to this ugly break-up between you and Therapist John Singer, the other man behind the Zip Code Rapists, what set it off in the first place?

GT: I can't even remember. You're talking ancient history. Now I've moved on. Doin' a new thing, singing a new song. He'd tell you the same.

MM: OK, if you don't want to talk about the bad times, let's talk about the good times. When did you form the Zip Code Rapists, and what were the circumstances?

GT: I didn't say I didn't want to talk about the bad times. I said I didn't want to talk about ancient history. You media types, you think you can confuse us. But yes, those were great times. The old Zip Code Rapist days, we had a lot of fun. It started back in '91 and after one show we knew we were on to something. A real stripped-down approach, very emotional. Too bad it all got bogged down later in studio gimmickry.

MM: If you don't mind my asking, how did you meet Therapist John, and what made you decide to start a band together in '91?

GT: I don't remember. We're old chemical guys from way back, worked the chemical industry. But we had a band way back in '89, you may have heard of them, The Easy Goings. Cut a couple of records that went nowhere. Cut another record two years ago, with the original line-up: "The Come On Sign"/"Dancing In The Moonlight". That one got mastered and plated, but still hasn't been released. I bet it won't be. Too bad.

MM: What were you doing in the chemical industry?

GT: Earning a living! It certainly wasn't for pleasure. John is still involved in it.

MM: So, what are you doing these days, or are you making a living at being in the music industry?

GT: You call this living? No, I'm certainly not. And only in America is it acceptable to ask people what they do for a living. You try that elsewhere, you'll get a fat lip. And since I was born elsewhere, I'm not saying.

MM: So, where were you born, or shouldn't I ask that either?

GT: Northern Territory, Australia.

MM: According to the latest Trouser Press Record Guide, you feel compelled to create rock music due to a desire for "public humiliation." What do you make of that?

GT: Not true. But it's nice to be in the same book with 2Pac.

MM: That same record guide says, "to call the Rapists a Ween tribute band is actually unfair - the lo-fi wailing of their first phase is hardly as skilled or ambitious as Dean and Gene's (Ween’s). Since music sure ain't it, the pair's main talent seems to be for pathological put-ons, atrocious cover songs and carefree self-abasement." Would you say that was a fair assessment?

GT: They're right that it's unfair to call the Rapists a Ween tribute band--how can our whole band be a tribute to a group that neither one of us is familiar with?! I've only ever heard one Ween record, and it didn't make much of an impression. As for the rest of it...whatever. There's nothing to gain by nitpicking about entries in record guides. I just wish they assigned one-to-five star ratings to each album like the old Rolling Stone Record Guide, where it was possible to suffer the indignity of receiving a black block rather than even one star.

MM: Back when you were still together, John Singer, your partner in the Zip Code Rapists, was quoted as saying that he was "disgusted" by the "hateful facet of ZCR." He also said that you were "too violent a character." What's your take on this hateful, violent aspect of your character?

GT: That's entertainment!

MM: Where do you draw the line between hate and entertainment?

GT: I deal strictly in entertainment. Hate should be confined to the privacy of one's own home.

MM: How would you say audiences respond to this particular brand of entertainment, which I've heard you refer to as the, "asshole routine"?

GT: It completely depends on the audience and the particular show. Some enjoy it and get something out of it, others walk away disgusted. We haven't played in ages and of course the American public has gotten so much more sophisticated in the last few years.

MM: So, it's a mark of "sophistication" to enjoy being insulted and having things thrown at you.

GT: No, no, that's not what I said.

MM: Alright, maybe I was baiting you, trying to get you to explode so that all of our readers could see that legendary Turkington charm. I'm sorry. I'm just fascinated my that element of ZCR and I'm curious as to why you developed it such as you did. Personally, I feel a great deal of contempt for audiences when I play, and I was wondering if it was the same for you. Is contempt at the root our your "hate and be hated" routine, or is it really, as you say, just an act for entertainment's sake?

GT: Never tease tigers! (As Bent Fabric put it.) I haven't had any respect for the world of underground music for years, if that's what you're fishing for.

MM: What do you have respect for? Let me try to guess; Andy Kaufman, G.G. Allin, Dada, Kiss... Who are your heroes?

GT: Phil Ochs, Albert Brooks, Barry Gibb, The Four Tops, The Temptations, Tupac Shakur, Tom Jones, Christopher Darden, Jimmy Webb, Brian Wilson, Warren Oates, Irma Juarez, Lou Rawls, Frank Sinatra Jr., Andy Kaufman, sure...a bunch more too. Way too many to list! So many great people! And I'm not even going to start listing off my talented pals.

MM: Speaking of your talented pals in the world of “alternative rock”, someone just showed me a picture of you and John with the Joe Piscipo of the rock world, Henry Rollins.

GT: Oh yes, at his record signing. That was odd. We stumbled in to see what all the hullabaloo was about, and were on our way out the door when one of the store employees grabbed us and made us take a picture with Hank. They actually picked us out of the crowd for that honor. In all fairness though, Black Flag's "Damaged" LP really is the cream of the crop when it comes to punk rock recordings. It stands the test of time.

MM: Yeah, I like "Damaged" too, but, all in all, I think I like Mr. Rollins better as a body builder than as a singer. Let's talk about some of your other famous friends. How did you come to know the comedian Neil Hamburger?

GT: I saw a show in Reno, and offered to produce some recordings.

MM: So, would you say you were responsible for "discovering" him? I'd never heard of him before he appeared on Amarillo's "Great Phone Calls" Record, and since then, I've been seeing his name everywhere. Just yesterday, a friend of mine (the same guy who showed me the Hank Rollins picture) told me that quite a few people believe that Neil Hamburger is actually Andy Kaufman.

GT: You need new friends. Yes, I "discovered" him in terms of setting him up to record for indie rock labels rather than the vanity-comedy labels that were releasing his cassettes in the past. But I didn't really "discover" him in that the guy is still broke and playing in pizza parlors to make ends meet. That's hardly being discovered.

MM: As for the Andy Kaufman thing, I take it that you don't think that's even worth commenting upon?

GT: Well, Andy Kaufman is amazing, but also amazingly dead. It's pretty well-documented. Neil Hamburger is maybe not so amazing, but it has been pretty well documented that he is among the living.

MM: Until I see a body, I'm going to keep on believing. As long as I believe that Aristotle Onassis was JFK, that Billy Shears is Paul McCartney, and that Courtney Love is Tina Yothers, I might as well believe that Neil Hamburger is Andy Kaufman.

GT: That kind of independent thought is what helped make our country great.

MM: Last night Linette and I went out to see the band Half Japanese, and while we were there, I mentioned to someone that you and I were doing this e-mail interview. He called you a "sell-out". I personally like the label “sell-out”, but I was wondering what you thought of it.

GT: It's true, my works have made me a very, very wealthy man.

MM: According to him, you're a "sell-out" not because of how much money you’ve made (which I understand is considerable), but because of something that happened here in Michigan not so long ago. He tells me that you were here being road manager to Warner Brothers recording artists "Mr. Bungle" at some nice, big venue, while that same night one of your own Amarillo artists, "Thinking Fellers Union Local 282", was in the same town, supporting their Amarillo release, Coffee. Unlike "Mr. Bungle", they weren't having too good a time. Apparently they had to play in someone's basement. I don't recall a lot of what was said, but the gist was that you turned your back on your dedicated and hard working Amarillo artists in order hobnob with the rich and famous.

GT: Your friend is a busybody. I was working, not hobnobbing. And I was working for Mr. Bungle, not Warner Brothers. But let him believe what he wants. If he'd rather hang out at smoky, nightmarish Half-Japanese shows HOBNOBBING with a bunch of jack-offs than stay at home listening to great gems from the Warner Bros back catalog, good for him.

MM: There was no smoking at the show, it was hardly "nightmarish", and I wouldn't say that the guys in the band were exactly "jack-offs", in fact, they are probably among the nicest people I know. Aside from that, I'd say your assessment is correct. My friend is a busybody.

GT: Well, you're just baiting me anyway.

MM: Let's talk about your other famous friends now. Do you hang out with Anton LaVey now that you live in San Francisco, or is he just an employee of yours?

GT: I don't live in San Francisco anymore. I visit Anton LaVey from time to time, yes.

MM: What do you do when you get together, anything evil?

GT: If we did, I wouldn't tell you about it.

MM: Do you think that blood sacrifice gets a bad rap in the mainstream press?

GT: Blah blah next question please.

MM: Is there anything in particular that you would like to discuss?

GT: I loved the movie "When We Were Kings". The bottom is about to fall out of the indie-rock market. Good! Fly Qantas. 2Pac is the greatest. Buy Barilla brand spaghetti sauce. McDonald's secretly soaks their fries in beef tallow. I love a parade.

MM: You've mentioned 2Pac at least three times in this interview so far, what's the fascination?

GT: I believe it, it's all I listen to anymore. Very compelling stuff. Fantastic, in fact. Qantas is fantastic too! Great food and service. A perfect safety record. You might consider putting together an article on the safety records of different airlines. You could really save lives with something like that. Southwest is another airline that can do no wrong. They keep costs low but still maintain a perfect safety record.

MM: If you were a regular reader of Crimewave, you’d know that we just did an exhaustive four part series on airline safety, but thanks for the advice. Now, have you ever been to the Black Cat piano bar in Oakland?

GT: No. Back in the old "Breakfast Without Meat" magazine days (he used to publish the magazine BWM), Lizzy and I used to go get sloshed at The Alley in Oakland, with Rod Dibble at the piano. He's been there for 30 years. But the Black Cat does not ring a bell.

MM: O.K., maybe it was The Alley then. Someone just called to tell me that he saw your name scratched into a wall there. He thought that the name of the place was the Black Cat, but he wasn't sure. All he knew for sure was that it was a piano bar in Oakland and that your name was on the wall. I had no idea that I would find out so many trivial and seemingly meaningless things about you when I put the word out on the street that I was doing this interview. All of a sudden I have pictures of you paling around with Henry Rollins, sightings of your name carved into walls, stories of mistreated Amarillo bands, etc. It's kind of frightening in a way, how little privacy there is these days.

GT: It's scary alright, all these strangers knowing all these deep dark secrets. Heavy, heavy shit. I never scratched my name on a wall though.

MM: Do you want to hear a sad story about a boy you made cry?

GT: I guess so.

MM: It's not that bad actually. It's just that someone wrote you a few letters and sent you a few tapes back in the "Breakfast Without Meat" days and you never wrote back. You were kind of his hero and it broke his heart. Apparently he thought you would hear this version of Dion doing "Purple Haze" and want to be his friend. When you didn't respond to that, he sat down with a guitar and did a version of "McArthur Park" for you. I guess he gave it up after a while and moved on the bug other people. Now he bugs Linette and I. (This sad little boy is none other than Crimewave’s favorite whipping boy, Russ Forster, editor of 8 Track Mind.)

GT: We were almost fanatical about answering all our mail. Even if his tapes were a stone-cold bore he would have at least received a courteous thank-you note. I can't guarantee it but I suspect we never received his tapes, especially since your description of them does not ring a bell. Which is not to say I want to receive them now...!

MM: I'll pass that information along to him. I'm sure he won't believe you, but maybe it will give him some closure and allow him to finally put the incident behind him and move on with his life. I've heard quite a bit about your work as an actor. How is that going?

GT: Where do you hear all this shit? I'm not seeking work as an actor.

MM: As for it being "shit", I'm not sure, I'm just going by your own words. As for where I got the information, it came from an interview you did a few years back with the magazine "Your Flesh". In the interview you say that in addition to acting in an episode of Quincy, you had played the role of a Skinhead in a PBS film on American families. You sounded enthusiastic about acting, and I just assumed that you were still pursuing it. I didn't know that you had given it up.

GT: Oh. Well, I was never pursuing an acting career. I just did that one film because someone asked me to, and my enthusiasm probably had more to do with the nice paycheck I received for 3 days of fairly pleasant work than with any aspirations to break into that particular line of work.

MM: Which episode of Quincy were you in?

GT: None. Someone was tampering with interview transcripts. I do like Jack Klugman though.

MM: Did someone also make up that bit about corporate sponsorships, or were multi-national corporations really buying you equipment and flying the Zip Code Rapists around the globe to play company picnics and the like?

GT: Of course not.

MM: Does it make you angry when people make thing like that up and try to pass them off as things you’ve said?

GT: I meant “of course not” as in “of course no one made up that bit--it’s true!” But in regards to your next question...NO, not in fanzine interviews.

MM: So, which companies are sponsoring your most recent musical venture, Faxedhead?

GT: None. And Faxedhead has been around since 1992.

MM: Can you answer rumors about witchcraft within the band?*

GT: Didn't you already ask that? We both know there are no such rumors.

MM: Have you ever been tempted to evil beyond your will to resist?**

GT: Only once, when someone kept trying to trip me up using a mirror.

MM: I'm sorry, I will put the mirror away now.

* Question taken verbatim from Gregg’s Breakfast Without Meat interview with Canned Heat
** Question taken verbatim from Gregg’s Breakfast Without Meat interview with American Music Club’s Mark Eitzel
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MM: I asked Gregg to tell us about the bad times and the ugly break-up of ZCR and he wouldn't do it. He said that both you and he had put all that behind you. Is that true, have you put it all behind you?

JS: Yes, absolutely. I’ve put it all behind me, and I’m looking forward to working with Gregg again in the near future.

MM: I'm trying to sell a magazine here, can't you give me just a little hatred and controversy? Tell us about the time that Gregg made you the most angry?

JS: The only times Gregg has ever made me angry is when I know he's not giving 100%. And those have been rare occasions, believe me.

MM: I apologize for pushing you, it's just that I'm getting frustrated by my interview with Gregg. All he wants to talk about it how great an airline Quantas is. I thought that you might be able to shed some more light on the confrontational side of the Zip Code Rapists; the insults, the table throwing, the break-up, the law suits, etc.

JS: No problem. I hate to be the one to suggest this, but we probably both feel the angry side of our "persona" is a little played out, and perhaps don't really know what to say about it. What happens when we are together on stage is one thing, and could accurately be called at times confrontational. But there is so much more that could potentially go on that to rehash past "glories", so to speak, is probably not all that appealing.

My suggestion would be to ask the most outlandish (or normal) questions that you can think of that are not about the confrontational side. We, and Gregg especially, will probably come up with fairly entertaining answers that your reading public might find interesting. I would guess by your comments that positive words about an Australian airline fall outside of that. But you could always portray us as fools and has-beens who now can only talk about international travel, major label releases, and musical tastes that to your normal readers seem suspect. If you think Gregg's tastes are strange, ask me about mine--Gregg can't stand the music I listen to in most cases.

Anyway, sorry to be so pedestrian.

MM: OK, let’s talk about your strange tastes in music then. I take it from listening to the songs on your most recent solo release, “Therapist John’s Zip Code Revue”, that your tastes run toward toward Country and Classic Rock. I very much like the record by the way.

JS: The story on the choice of material for the CD is not very exciting, really. The Zip Code Revue played together a total of six times, including the recording. We played live twice. The first show was on a bill with Melt Banana and Keiji Haino(sp), so we veered from lounge covers to start/stop speedy versions of Rapist’s songs (hence the song Wired...etc.). The second show we played we were on the bill with some up and coming country-rock band (could have been Dieselhed?), so we decided to write some original material in that vein. The anti-3Doctor spin of the Iyrics came about because members of that band stood in front of the door at the first show with flyers telling everyone coming in that we were a rip-off 50s cover band that were breaking the law by playing Zip Code Rapist songs. Since they seemed (at the time) hell bent on destroying our reputation, we responded with sincere Iyrics of pain, confusion and hurt.

As for the classic rock aspect, we were reputed to be a bad lounge band so we responded by being a.......lounge band. Covers done at the shows that could have been on the CD included New Kid in Town (Eagles), #9 Dream (Lennon), By the Time I Get to Phoenix (the Isaac Hayes version, including long rap and horn parts), and a couple of others that are thankfully fading out of my memory.

We did work out 3 and 4 part harmonies on a lot of stuff, basically because everyone wanted to sing. My best memories of doing these shows include the time we were playing the now defunct Thirsty Swede on Haight Street, and one of the still prevalent hippie-types ran to the bartender and proclaimed that they finally had gotten a decent band to play there as we did a respectful version of #9 Dream. Also, the absolute thrill of hearing Mark Davies play the lead guitar lines from “New Kid” note for note still makes me smile. These guys were masters of any genre they put their minds to, the mark of greatness.

The recording session has left me with never to be released versions of Ramblin’ Man, Saturday in the Park, several more space jams, and many alternate takes (especially since most of it was live). And the full band has never played again—the only other material is a song written by Mark and I that came out on a Japanese only cassette compilation put out by Lost Frog, song title Burl Ives Dies at Disneyland. It was very rocky raucous guitar stuff which seems like a different group.

The “strange taste” comment was just a prompt, although I believe my tastes would not be reflected in the usual “scene zine”. Which is not to imply anything regarding Crimewave—l have no idea what it’s like. Care to fill me in?

MM: I was under the impression that you had been given copies of Crimewave by Greg. I’ve sent him issues for you and he’s assured me that he would pass them along. As for your question though, the only scene that Crimewave is interested in is that between Linette and I. The magazine is ours and we do what we like with it. We don’t care much for pandering to popular tastes. Perhaps that’s why we don’t sell to many copies.

I’m sorry to hear that you aren’t still playing with the Zip Code Review, from the liner notes on your record “Abundance” it sounded as though you were really enjoying the experience of playing with “real” musicians for a change. Is there any chance we might see another record from the Review at some point in the future, or have you moved on to other projects?

JS: The band members would probably get together in an instant if we had some idea or inspiration to gather around. I have probably been suffering from a bit of (for lack of a better word) scene burnout as of late. Any situation that depends on repeating your same tricks loses interest for me eventually, and I guess I haven’t come up with the energy to present a new vision to the band or the world at large right now. Fortunately this has been accompanied by a lessening in the need for attention or validation from an audience, though I do miss the sharing of experience that used to happen.

As for another release, all I need is a reason and the resources to do it. Does this sound familiar? Keep in touch and you’ll be the first to hear about it.

Other musical stuff I’ve done as of late is play guitar for others, including a surf band made up of Klaus Fluoride and East Bay Ray of the Dead Kennedys, Dave Scheff (x-Translator) and a couple of us other non-famous types. I play the weird parts that don’t sound surfy, a sort of token noise/rock player on top of the traditionalism.

So what do you and Linette do to keep your scene alive? What matters to you two? And how and why have you taken an interest in the Zip Code Rapists?

MM: The scene I’m in now is something of a TV watching, going to bed early scene. I like to get into bed by 10:00 PM so that I can hear the Jack Benny Show on the radio. A perfect day for me is a full mailbox in the morning, a nice bowl of soup for lunch (I go to the same place every day), a good episode of Unsolved Mysteries on TV (8:00 PM on the Lifetime network), a few chapters of a used mystery novel and then my old-time radio shows; throw in some big band music, some really old, scratchy blues records and an ice-water with lemon, and I’m in heaven. That’s pretty much my life (outside of my incredibly awful job that is). I guess you could call that a scene. As for music, I don’t go out much any more and I’m not sure what’s going on. When I do go out, I just find myself getting angry at the kids I see, so what’s the point. As for why I’m doing an interview with ZCR, at first it was because I was a fan from way back, and then it was because Greg kept pursuing it after I mentioned it to him. I guess I liked your work because it reminded me of my own at the time, very self-gratifying and condescending. I guess I thought it would be neat to put that into perspective now that some time has passed, that’s why I guess I wanted to do an interview. What do you make of that?

JS: Well, it would be tough for me to call what we did self-gratifying, although it most certainly was at times. As I’ve said before in interviews, the beauty of ZCR was the way it both live and on record tried not to live up to expectations while at the same time being as completely in the moment as we could possibly make it. The recordings obviously were not studio sculpted in the traditional sense, that of making things sound “right’’ or even wrong in a right way (a la the now fading lo-fi movement). But I stand by them even now as being documents that captured that moment, that energy in a very honest way. Everything we ever recorded was done quickly once we got started, and having logged many hours on other projects this was refreshing and liberating.

Live? How could anyone not think we were going for self-gratification or being condescending towards our audience? Those were huge elements in what was going on. But beyond that, what I think was the most interesting thing we did was take whatever was going on at a show--be it the mood of the audience, of us, our level of drunkeness, the bands we were on the bill with--and use that as the material to “do a show’’. This was risky, not easy, and meant that you had to be totally responsive every single time you performed at a level that your normal rock band doesn’t ever have to approach. It can be enormously funny (Gregg has brought me the closest to wetting my pants as an adult that I will ever come) to the most pathetically sad spectacle I’ve ever seen, much less been a part of.

But all the above are just words that betray much of what it has been about. The act of trying to define the experience makes me feel bloated and self-important in a uncomfortable way.

Now old-time radio shows, that sounds better. I recently picked up an old Admiral console (AM and phono combined) that takes a full minute to warm up and moves my living room back in time 50 years every time it’s on.

As for getting angry at the kids when you go out, I understand this completely. But somewhere, maybe even in the midst of the most stupidly narrow people that you see, is someone trying very hard to be wider and more open. Even as I wear out from the effort of this myself, I believe there are others still trying. Who knows, maybe you’re one of them.

(In an era of artistic stagnation when other bands weren’t doing much except for trying to find ways to cash in, the Zip Code Rapists gave us a new vision of the future. For that I will always appreciate them. While I don’t whistle their tunes (except for maybe Wired), I enjoy their art and their courage for making it in the face of an unappreciative public. Bravo, Zip Code Gentlemen!
I would also like to say that few issues of Gregg’s magazine, Breakfast Without Meat, that I have seen are among the funniest things I have ever seen in print. I can’t believe that I didn’t see them when they were first published. Even though they are years old now, they are still more relevant than 99% of the small press publications out there now, this one included.)

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